HOW THE ALTERNATIVE ROCKER IN THE BABY-DOLL DRESS TRANSFORMED HERSELF INTO A VERSACE-WEARING HOLLYWOOD STAR Courtney Love is out to educate her audience. At the moment, it is an audience of one. Early in the rock-star version of morning--around 1 in the afternoon--on a summer Saturday, Love arrives at my Los Angeles hotel suite with a hunger for room service and a few books in her Gucci bag. She sits me down and makes me skim an essay by the novelist Harold Brodkey about the Academy Awards. "Did you get to the part about Liz Taylor's face yet?" she asks, her spidery legs dangling over the suite's one armchair, her black satin Ann Demeulemeester dress mussed just so. "He totally gets that it's a big pageant. It's an opulent, wonderful thing. I love it. It's drag! Why would you not go to the biggest drag show on earth?" The question seems academic to Love, whose movie-star ambitions began when she was a preteen pouring over vintage books on Tinseltown in Eugene, Ore., where she lived a communal existence with her therapist mom adn various family friends. (Love's father, a professional follower of the Grateful Dead, didn't factor into her childhood.) Two decades later, the self-professed punk feminist began her campaign to become the first real rock star accepted into the film-industry establishment, when she won the part of Althea in Milos Forman's picture The People Vs. Larry Flynt. Her knockout performance as Flynt's dynamic, drug-addicted wife gave the film its heart, and set forth Love on a path of ever-increasing glamour. Her turn in a sleek Versace white satin gown at this year's Oscars was the most widely viewed sign of Love's newfound chic; soon she was playing model in Vogue and being named an inspiration by designers like Anna Sui and Helmut Lang. But it was Gianni Versace who declared Love his new muse. "She is the only one who is herself," the designer said last year in an interview. Indeed, the day Versace was murdered, Love was on a plane to Rome to be a guest at his fall show. Her metamorphosis seemed complete when she appeared in a Ralph Lauren halter-neck bodysuit on the cover of Harper's Bazzar this fall, officially dubbed one of America's Most Stylish Women. The fashion world had taken to Love as if she were a new hemline, but many fans of her music felt the singer had lost her rebel soul and become no more original than, as one rock critic put it, "a new roomie on Friends." Love quotes Brodkey's essay because she wants to make clear why judgements such as that critic's are, in her eyes, ridiculous. She wants the world to see Hollywood as she sees it - not the land of the liposuction conformity and salad-addled superciliousness, but a psychic playground, the place where America dreams. As hidden as this side of her may sometimes be, Love is as much self-taught intellectual as provocateur; she has a theory for everything, and her grand subject is herself. When Love makes a move, she almost always knows the reason for it; and if you ask, she'll explain it in great detail. She admits that after the suicide of her husband, Nirvana frontman Kurt Cobain, in 1994, she spent a few months on drugs and in trouble. But now she is cleaned up, working hard at being a good mother to her and Cobain's 5-year- old daughter, Frances Bean, and determined to complete the long-overdue follow-up to Hole's breakthrough album, Live Through This. The night before she invades my hotel room, Love and I spend a few hours at the Los Feliz, Calif., studio where Hole is recording the new album. When we arrive, Love strips out of her powder-blue silk skirt and Lycra top and gets into her work clothes: black nylon leggins and a plain hemp T-shirt. Although the new tracks (executive-produced by old friend and Smashing Pumpkins leader Billy Corgan) are still too raw for journalistic ears, Love discusses them at length, spontaneously wailing a few verses now and then. "There's one Seattle song about the last trees falling," she confides, "and the rest are homages to California." Clearly at home in New Age Los Angeles, Love, 33, has embraced its oddly puritanical lifestyle, spending most nights mulling over scripts in the roomy house she has rented in a quiet Hollywood neighborhood, getting to bed early as part of a fashionable health reigme that would make Larry Flynt co-star Woody Harrelson proud. She refuses to name anyone she's dating (although several clues she leaves laying around suggest that her other Larry Flynt co-star Edward Norton figures seriously in her life) and acts a bit shy, though excited, about her newfound famous friends. "Demi's got a lot of balls," says Love of Moore's head-shaving turn in GI Jane. "Plus, she gets to have kids and a real life. She gets to have it all, and I think that's great." Love hopes her own rise to the higher echelons of stardom and glamour will encourage women to believe in their own charms, whether or not they fit the common place ideal. But is she kidding herself? On one level, certainly. Her admittedly surgery-enhanced looks and designer-mad attitude don't differ enough from the average actress's to offer a genuine alternative, and her opinions butt up against each other enough to make her real feelings about female power unclear. "It's boring to be about a dress," she scoffs; yet she is the one riding the couture's whirl, threatening to become more famous for her style that for her acting or her music. This could change, of course, when the new album is released and when she finally chooses her next film. Then the work can do the talking. For now, though, what fascinates is the vision of Courtney Love in process: confounding, exciting, still a lightning rod for all the contradictions that make up modern womanhood. US: Sometimes I think it has been hard for your fans to adjust to the new Courtney. Do you feel people have been misreading where you're at lately? Courtney: For them, I represent whatever female form of freedom that Patti Smith and Exene (Cervenkova, of the punk-rock band X) represented to me, and that's great. It's the part of me that didn't care about anything. But that's not me. Go see The People Vs. Larry Flynt. I've never sen a woman do what I did in that film--take it that far with her physicality. On top of it, they haven't heard this record, so they can kiss my well-toned yoga butt! US: OK, yoga Courtney. What's with this L.A.-woman thing? It's all over your newvsongs. Courtney: I'm trying to redefine California. I'm going back, from the 60's through Fleetwood Mac and X to Jane's Addiction, Perry Farrell, whom I consider a California woman. I'm thinking of calling the album Malibu. I almost want to make the cover a big picture of a Douglas fur getting rained on. It's about the denial of death. Go to the light. US: There was a moment in rock when people did just that, and it was the '70's Fleetwood Mac and the Eagles. Courtney: Right. There was prosperity, and a familial collective. I took those people and their lifestyle as an idea for this record. Then I took my experience of having lived in Malibu, not having a car and walking six miles to take a bus to go sleep on (guitarist and former touring member of Nirvana) Pat Smear's bird-pee-stained floor. And then the whole experience with the Northwest, and trying to figure out what I want to do. And what I want to do is go to the light. I don't want to die in the dark. And nobody can stop me. You can't say, 'we want you to go back to the dark, we miss the person who was dying even though we destroyed you, we tore down your life--but we miss that, could you go back there?' US: Are you saying you denounce your earlier persona, the screaming Courtney in the baby-doll dress? Courtney: No, are you kidding? I'm so proud of myself. I worked with anger, with the darkest thing in the world. What is art if not that? I stumbled into an archetype, and I had no idea what I was doing. I walked out of a subculture into mainstream culture, with a totally cocky attitude, and I was humbled. I always thought I'd get trouble, because I'm not normal, but I had no idea. US: It sounds like you lost control of the archetype. Courtney: When Hole was first playing, I was embracing life fully. But there was a later period when bad things happened. Someone should have locked me in my damn house. You don't just go through something like (Cobain's death) and walk out onstage. It's too much. I think it was an amazing performance, because you can't get any more real, but at the same time, some of my psyche got damaged by it. US: So if you wear hip-huggers and Danskins, will they make you a new person? Courtney: That's the point. Isn't that why people appropriate signs of wealth and wear them? It doesn't change the actual situation, but they symbolism shows where you're at. US: How are you going to deal with Frances' getting older and becoming interested in beauty and fashion? Courtney: I think it's about being grounded in your body. Some of the families I've met here in Hollywood, they're almost Kennedy-esque. The kids all play sports. They grow up, they're healthy, there are no junkies, no crazy people. They're all jocks, but smart and brainy. They participate in a lot of endorphin- creating fitness. Like soccer. US: Does that mean you'll become a soccer mom? Courtney: Well, yeah, because when I got to play football as a young adolescent, I was so good. US: So will Frances have that talent? Courtney: I think she probably has the anger and the aggression that kids have. But I don't know how I'm gonna hold the line. She doesn't need to learn to be submissive. I want to give her a sense of quality and that she is right. The last thing I tell her when I tell her what she is, is pretty. And yet she always wants that. She already has that training. US: Where did she get that? Courtney: Preschool? Feminized nanny? I don't know. Not from me. God, she's so smart. Yesterday she wrote "Yamaha" off the piano. Just wrote it. I was so proud. She goes, "Yes, but am I pretty? Am I the prettiest?" It doesn't matter! I'm not going to give it to her. On the other hand, Italian mothers tell their daughters that they're the most beautiful girls in the world. And the Italian women you meet are always in their bodies. US: Do you think it's hard for a woman to be comfortable in her body? Courtney: Designers draw for a model who's 7 feet, and even Barbie isn't that tall. For the Academy Awards, I went to all the designers and said, sketch me something that looks like a woman, 5 or 6 feet high. I want to see what the dress is going to look like on someone who's got a body that exists on Earth, not Mars. Because that body doesn't exist. It's a trap, and an evil evil mindfuck for women. I did not want to participate in it. I said, if we're going to play a game, let's play together. US: And did they do it? Courtney: Only Versace did it. US: Designers say the same thing about women who wear larger than a size 14: "I can't draw that way." That seems to be the discourse you're invading. Courtney: Yeah, in my own way. And it's important to me. But the truth is, sometimes what I wear is thought out and sometimes it's frivolous. Sometimes it's just that it's cute and it's cut well. That's one thing Sharon Stone said to me - ignore what's hip, it's about the cut. I thought it was amazing of her to loan me a dress for the Golden Globes. I was going to wear this gorgeous gray Versace dress, but it would have been too "rock." The one Sharon loaned me was beautiful and chic and elegant. It was Valentino, who we love for the cut. I appreciate that the fantasy or the cut of these clothes represents a kind of freedom; but when they're designed for women who are so different from the average American woman, I can't see how that's about freedom. To get parts in Hollywood you have to be unbearably thin. Actually, the women consent to it. We look at each other's stomach to see whose is concave. It's a power thing. I know I had an enormous resentment against Gwen (Stefani, of No Doubt) working her abs on teen-age girls. But did that make me hypocritical? I don't know. I want to be healthy. I want to take care of myself. And if working out makes me thin, I'm sorry. It's my metabolism. Oh, God, I sound like a model. I'm sorry, I'm not trying to. US: You are thin, but you aren't 95 pounds. Courtney: I proved I could do that if I wanted to, when I lost all that weight for Larry Flynt. And let me tell you, when I was 105 pounds, I never felt so vulnerable to men in my whole life. I was treated like a little doll. Considering what I was going through on that film, it was wonderful. The men I was around were exceptional, so I had that really lucky break. US: These days, the pressure goes beyond weight to include all kinds of body modification - plastic surgery, for example. It has been reported that you've had work done on your nose and breasts... Courtney: I think the fact that you can buy beauty now is a really good thing. It's more fair; it's more American. There's this charitable organization in New York, and they give female prisoners plastic surgery at a cut rate. These women have huge jaws, screwed-up teeh, gigantic noses. They have been pegged as criminals since the day they were born because of how they look. And they literally got new lives. People respond to them differently. US: So, do you wish there was an inexpensive form of plastic surgery available to everyone? Courtney: No! I think that self-esteem...First of all, standards are ridiculous. Some people are anorexic, and it's gross that magazines use them. These standards that get set are crazy, so when we look in the mirror we never see anything right. US: Some people are saying now that a healthier, more toned body is going to become the norm, now that girls are more into sports. Courtney: I'm glad. As somebody who was recently incredibly unhealthy, now I'm approaching Woody-ness. I am! US: You're still smoking though. You made me stop at the liquor store so you could buy cigarettes. Courtney: I told Frances I'd stop when she learns to read. I'm giving myself just enough time. I'm gonna learn to drive and stop smoking. US: What is your personal regime in terms of physical fitness? Courtney: I'm really, really into yoga. So is Madonna, by the way. But we have different regimes - I like to be more psychologically grounded, and she likes to thrash around a little more. I work out four times a week in the gym. I cross-train. I go outside. I work really hard - harder and harder lately. Because I'm never gonna get liposuction. I've done whatever plastic surgery I'm gonna do, and we're not even gonna talk about it. I'm done with my self-improvement, and now it's about trying to find real health. US: Are you taking any special route to that? Courtney: I've been seeing Master Hong Liu for seven months. He's a master in qi gong, which is a kind of exercise; but it's also energy work on your body. He gave me this amazing honey stuff that they've been giving Goldie Hawn for years. I was like, give it up, whatever it is! Since I've been taking it, I see my skin in photographs and it's shiny. He's bee showing me how to sleep with a Buddhist smile. Really, beauty does radiate outward. US: But some beauty is painted on. You've embraced Joan Crawford and Bette Davis as personal icons. These women displayed a particularly theatrical kind of glamour. Courtney: Not Bette. Bette was a big schlump. US: But she and Crawford had extreme appeal. Admiring them isn't like watching a Grace Kelly movie every week. Courtney: Not that I have anything against great beauties. Watch Vivien Leigh and your heart will break, the beauty's so insane. But there's got to be some sass, some Rosalind Russell. And some Joan, too - some mannequin, high-end exposition. Joan is just deranged, in the best possible way. US: Do you see people like that now in Hollywood? Courtney: The greatest women in this town, now and in the past, have been fighters. The Loretta Young types are a chorus. The ones who matter rise above and fight their butts off, beauties and ugly ducklings alike. Sharon Stone is one. Demi Moore is another. And Drew Barrymore. US: Another glamorous woman of this kind is Donatella Versace. Courtney: On the cover of Harper's Bazzar I dressed up as Donatella. Donatella is about this Italian sense of body. She's about glamour for herself. US: What about you? Who is your glamour for? Courtney: Sometimes I dress for other women. Sometimes I dress for men. Sometimes I dress to be safe, sometimes to be brave. US: Now that you've changed your style, reporters write things like, "Courtney Love is actually very pretty." Do you want to be known for being pretty? Courtney: When I did Larry Flynt, it was like being in a band with boys for the first time. I had never in my life understood or wanted to be a daddy's girl. My feminist upbringing taught me that pretty was passive. But sometimes it's fun to be the angel on the top of the tree for five minutes. I've been afraid of being pretty, but not so much anymore. US: Gianni Versace once included you in a list of his favorite women, along with Carolyn Bessette Kennedy. How do you feel about being lumped together with someone like her? Courtney: There was a great quote in British Vogue. It said, men fantasize about Courtney, and they marry Gwyneth (Paltrow). You could say they fantasize about Madonna and marry Carolyn. You can't have one without the other. Rose White, Rose Red. US: Do the men in your life prefer the pretty you? Courtney: Do they have a choice? That's not the way it goes in real relationships. Speaking of men, is there anyone in Hollywood who you think is really cute? I have a huge crush on Kevin Spacey. I'd chase Kevin Spacey around a room. I can't stay away from him. I just want to sit on his lap. US: You've dated a fair number of musicians and actors. Do they tend to worry about their looks? Courtney: Kurt had a look, but his thing was to go against his own beauty. He was really into that. Because it was so naturally there, in crazy amounts. And after a certain point he was so damaged by what happened to him that that was the end of it. US: You moved away from the rock world after his deah. Do you think the transition back will be hard? Courtney: No way. None of this has been fake. If it becomes pedestrian, then I'll stop. But it's hardly pedestrian, and I think I have a good critical mind-set for this stuff. US: When you go back out on tour for this album, what will you wear onstage? Courtney: I don't know yet. Before he died, Versace told me he wanted to design my tour. I went, oh, my God, a designer tour. It's rock! You can't sit there and play guitar and sweat and then go change a gown every five songs. Although, Stevie Nicks puts on different shawls for different songs. She has her "Rhiannon" shawl and her "Gold Dust Woman" shawl. And Beck goes out onstage in a Nudie suit and white stain yarmulke. US: Even if the Versace house doesn't design your tour, will you do other things with them in the future? Courtney: I was gonna do an ad campaign for them, and then I changed my mind. Partly, I was being reactive about Madonna. I went through this whold phase where I thought if Madonna did something, I can't do it. I was being stupid. Madonna's done everything. If I can't do anything because she's already done it, well, I'm going to limit myself to sitting in the corner screaming. She hasn't done that. US: Now that you've had movie sucess and you're hanging out with Madonna, Demi Moore and Sharon Stone... Courtney: I don't actively hang out with Sharon Stone or Demi Moore, I just like them. I hang out with Madonna, but not really publicly. US: Is there a point where you really can't have other kinds of friends? Courtney: Who else are you going to communicate with? That's the relief of Madonna. I can say, is this producer or that stylist any good? Because she knows. It's nice to have someone who's richer than you who you can relate to. But I think it's also very hard for people to get close to other people in Hollywood, because it is ephemeral and it is very, very competitive. Any second it might come up that something you really want is going to someone you know. US: Are your friendships with women competitive in other ways? Courtney: I'm a big supporter of women. I've always been. Some people are blindingly beautiful, but most people aren't. I see my bass player, who's one of the most stylish women alive, and she's genius. Some guy comes up to me and says, "I really have a crush on Melissa," and I'm like, "Really? Wanna take a number? You might as well start having a crush on me, because she's not going to get around to you until the next spring draft." We've had little problems here and there, but they're always about creative issues. It's hard to find a really integrated woman who's charismatic and likes herself enought to be present and true to her heart and also get the masculine principle, the technique and the craft. Because you can't scream your whole career. You've got to sit in your room and learn scales. US: There are many more prominent women in rock now that when Hole released their first record. Is there any advice you'd offer any of them? Courtney: I want to take Fiona Apple and shake her and say, "You have a beautiful voice, you could be Dusty Springfield, a perennial. You don't have to do some of this stuff that's obviously making you miserable." They won't let me have lunch with her. Billy Corgan and I tried, and they won't let us near her because they know we're obsessed with this. Free her from her bondage! She doesn't have to wear her damn underwear. US: Do you think more women in rock are going to be associated with high fashion? Courtney: It's hard not to succumb. They send you free gowns. US: Is it important to succumb? Courtney: No. But it's important to make a free choice. If what looks good right now is not right for you, you have to be strong enough to say, I'm not going to participate. Or you'll have to look at pictures of yourself in a year and go, oh, my God! I had a phase like that: trendy, trendy, trendy, my bad-fashion six months. But I got over it. US: What would you do if you didn't have a lot of money but you'd entered into this new consciousness about fashion? Courtney: Shoplift a lot. Sew. I'm not joking. I'd do vintage. Melissa and I still go to the thrift stores all the time. I'm probably going to go to Wasteland (and L.A. vintage-clothing boutique) right after this, find me some new indie-rock- critic T-shirts. US: So, what would be your beauty and fashion advice for average women out there? Courtney: Health. Mental health about your body image. Lots of yoga or dance or movement. Start soccer teams and beat each other up. Because women won't admit that they're competitive. Have confidence. Take a lot of vitamin C. Yoga teas are really good. And when you read fashion magazines, try to let them give you a jolt but not get into your life. Try to be Italian about things - like, I'm here and I'm fabulous! And you can be fabulous, too. - US Magazine, November, 1997 - - - - - - - - - - - - -